Little Help

[avamclean]

Okay, so I’m finally delving back into the ‘This is War’ ‘verse and I have a question for the f-list. If it came to a knock-down, drag-out, no powers held back fight between Azazel (the Yellow Eyed Demon) and Willow who would come out the victor?

 

I mean this a discussion. No bashing on Willow or Azazel. I want opinions on their abilities, not their actions.

 

Comments

[dharkapparition.livejournal.com]

So, I re-read from the beginning and woohoo! New chapter! Excellent story and the boys are gonna get their asses handed to them.

Dood.

I think, but this time, Willow will have come close to mastering her craft and power. There'd still be some darkness deep inside, because it never goes completely away once it's touched you.

I think Willow could beat Azazel, but he could tap into her darkness and it would be a struggle. She'd need an anchor, but not Buffy. And I think it would be ironic if the anchor turned out to be either brother. Each have their positives and negatives. If you think to bring in Dean's destiny in S4 and the fact that he ignored Sam's reluctance in exorcising Buffy, he would be the twisty choice.

An initial confrontation with Az would most likely lead to Willow getting her butt beat, just because he wouldn't be something she has encountered before.

[avamclean.livejournal.com]

All good points. I know I don’t want Willow to come off as weak or powerless, but in the same moment Azazel isn’t like their other enemies and Willow in all honesty is rarely on the front lines during the ‘big’ bads. The closet thing she’s come to in regards to a one on one fight was Glory, but she was weaker then and I’m completely ignoring the comics in this ‘verse since I’m beginning to hate them.

The darkness in Willow is a good concept and might be Azazel’s ace in the hole once he’s starting to get his ass handed to him and I’ll give you a shiny gold star if you can guess who Azazel’s ridding at the moment in the fic. ;)

Ooohhh, if I used the anchor plot twist: What about Bobby? Of all the people in that room he'd be the most grounded and I 'heart' Bobby so very much.

[dharkapparition.livejournal.com]

Bobby would be very much of the win.

And just maybe... Bobby could have a secret as well. I mena, he's pretty cool and all, but he's definitely aged and almost always hunts alone right? There's got to be something more to him.

But, having had the evening and today to think on it, Willow would definitely need some big mojo and help to defeat Az. And I think Bobby is the one to do it.

*squeezes Bobby

BUT... on another hand... LOL Az is stronger than your average incoporeal demon. So Bobby with his awesomeness might not be enough. What if Sam's blood could be used against Az? *wiggles eyebrows...

[dharkapparition.livejournal.com]

Oh! And i think Az is riding Jo. Can I haz cookie?

[avamclean.livejournal.com]

Wow, got it in one try. *hands you a cookie*

[dharkapparition.livejournal.com]

*kisses cookie and prances about the room

I got the cookie! I got the cookie!!!!

[avamclean.livejournal.com]

LOL Now I just need to figure out how to wrap up this trainwreck in motion. ;)

[dharkapparition.livejournal.com]

what did you think of my rambling comment? anything tickle your twisted fancy? Hmmm?

[avamclean.livejournal.com]

I think I figured out how the trainwreck will end and why it was started in the first place. *beams* Though I'm wary to use Sam'ish. I have other plans for him.

***Think anyone has figured out that the summary of the story isn't refering to Dean yet?

[dharkapparition.livejournal.com]

*twirls you

Can't WAIT!!!

[satyrnfive.livejournal.com]

I think Willow might have more raw power but Azazel definitely has the cunning and much more experience. Being a demon that could abandon a body at need has its advantages. I think it boils down to quality over quantity and Azazel has the 'quality' thing going. If Willow is worried about right and wrong or innocent bystanders she'll be even more disadvantaged.

[exposed1.livejournal.com]

As I'm looking at your icon I'm reminded that the Yellow Eyes is WAY hotter then the red or black ones. Can that be part of the vain argument? *grins*

[avamclean.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... good point on the innocent bystanders but those bystanders did just torture her best friend so she might be less inclined to worry about them.

[(Anonymous)]

I think Azazel would win. He is not only strong by himself; but he has empowered a multitude of children, who have more than strength and the occasional propehtic dream. Willow channeled energy to allow Potentials to have their Slayer power but it didn't really come from herself.

Azazel is also smart and only one thing can kill him. While it would be difficult to kill Willow, it is more than possible. And as has been mentioned, he pulls no punches. The guy just wants to kill you if he has no uses for you. Were Willow to go all out it would overwhelm her and then the White Hats have more problems than if she was just defeated.

[avamclean.livejournal.com]

I’m going to have to agree with you. I know season 2 Buffy insisted that anger, rage gives you power and the fire to finish a battle but it also makes you reckless. Look at season 3 Faith, her anger and grief went unchecked until it eventually caused her downfall. Hell yeah, she pulled herself up but if she’d met a demon stronger, smarter than herself during her downward spiral then we’d probably have Kennedy as our second Slayer.

*I didn’t mean that as a jab towards Kennedy. I actually like that character.

[exposed1.livejournal.com]

While I agree that Willow is one powerful witch I just don't believe she has the same power as Az. And even taking power strength away the cunning factor becomes HUGE. Y E D was able to out wit and out smart the Winchester men for YEARS! And according to what we've learned this season he's a pre-planner. Plans ahead and knows how to execute a plan. He's willing to use by-standers for his own personal gain and he doesn't care much who dies in the process. We can't really say that for Willow. Even Dark Willow only killed those that had some part of taking away Tara. Yes, she was going to suck the world into hell but who hasn't on that show? *grins*

Like Anon. mentioned he's got a league of extraordinary children/young adults willing to do his bidding. One could even argue that Sam is close to falling into that category.

Willow can be stopped and can be killed with conventional methods. I know Tara wasn't as strong or as tapped into things as Willow was but a gun could kill her if she wasn't paying attention. When Willow turned the potentials into Slayers we saw how much that took out of her and I, personally, can't seem to remember a time when Y E D was knocked out like that after using his own powers. Also, lets remember how easily Caleb killed the goddess that told Buffy about the scythe. And he wasn't no Y E D. She was ancient and mythical and she was an easy kill, granted she was taken off guard but you'd think she would be able to sense evil/danger.

I dunno... personally... Y E D would spank Wills. *hugs her*

[avamclean.livejournal.com]

We really don’t know how powerful Azazel is do we? I mean, yeah we’ve seen some of the damage he’s caused and can do but he never actually had anyone that gave him a run for his money in the powers department. If Casey could make the earth move and she followed Azazel that leads me to believe that he has at least that much power if not far surpassing it.

Let’s take Lilith for example. She’s the current badass, right? Well why wasn’t she the main badass instead of Azazel? Does that mean he’s as powerful as her? Does that mean he had the ability to burn people a piece at a time like Lilith? It makes me think he could. Lilith is just as wary of the Colt and Ruby’s knife as Azazel was and would have been.

I do disagree that Tara wasn’t as strong as Willow. Tara seemed to lack the confidence Willow gradually gained when she met Buffy. I think if Tara had been allowed to mature, grow as Willow had then we would have seen someone who rivaled Willow in power but also had a better grasp and understanding of the power she held. (I’m a huge Tara fan incase you didn’t notice. *winks*)

[exposed1.livejournal.com]

I myself am more of a Tara fan than Willow in later seasons. I never really thought about how her self confidence affected her craft. Now that I think about it, it's true. She had more knowledge about... (okay I know this isn't the right word) the history and lore of witch craft.

I wonder with Lilith and Y E D if upper level baddies work together or if they work by territory. Perhaps Lilith couldn't go after Sam until YED said go for it or he was out of the way.

[amarock.livejournal.com]

I had to re-read the story and fell in love with it all over again!!! Nice to see a storyline with the demon essence of the slayer as a part.
On the question who would win?, I´d say Willow. For one thing if I remember correctly her power stems from earth itself and is fairly limitless. Azazel has raw power, true, setting people on fire, freezing them...but he mainly acts through manipulation not always directly (also Willow can do all those things too). And he is "just" a demon. And if not outright killing him, going with the colt thing, but she could at least banish his ass to an other dimension ;-)

That said, I hope you update soon *pretty please*!!

[avamclean.livejournal.com]

LOL You’re the lone person on the Willow team at the moment. Though I’m curious as to why you think Willow’s power stems from the earth. In the show it did mention her ‘knowing’ everything on the earth was connected, not necessarily through magic, but through the cosmos. Willow’s power usually came from within her or when she tapped into other more mystical things.

During her ‘big’ spells Willow drew power from others. She drained dark magic books to go after Warren and then Rack to go after Jonathan and Andrew. Her other particularly impressive spell she tapped into the power of the Scythe and harnessed it. Neither of these spells were all Willow. Yes, she’s powerful, but is she powerful enough to face on Azazel?

In most works Azazel is described as a fallen angel. His very name means ‘God has been strong’ or ‘God strengthens’ if you go by its Hebrew origins azaz means ‘to be strong’ (which leads me on a’whole’nother plot bunny) and el means ‘God.’ He’s not you’re basic run of the mill demon (especially from the BtVS standpoint) and he sure as hell isn’t going to go down without inflicting serious damage to her and anyone within the general vicinity.

Yes, Willow can do all the things that Azazel has been show to be able to do but these things do drain her if you go by the actual series BtVS and not the crap’tastic comics. Azazel doesn’t grow tired, doesn’t even care about his physical form and I’m curious as to how you believe Willow has the ability to banish his ass to another dimension. The only time Willow helped in a spell that sent someone to another reality was during the vamp!Willow episode and Willow had Giles and Anya leading her through the incantation. I actually don’t think Willow really did anything during that spell other than assert herself to be the one that belonged in that particular ‘verse.

[amarock.livejournal.com]

Well, I have faith in humans *grin*
Now, it´s been a long time since I really watched the show and I am also behind in the comic season 8, so please forgive if I´m lacking in references.

Willow is one of earths most powerful Wicca, and as far as I know they draw power mainly from earth and themselves, also for most stuff (teleportation...) she doesn´t need an extra boost anymore (comics). You are right in that she harnessed the power of objects/people, but at least in the end it was I think so the First could not corrupt her use of magic. Which, okay would be a weak point against Azazel. That brings me to the use of christian stuff in both shows, and I think it´s much more pronounced in SPN and more "real"...that would mean that Az is Satan is Lucifer, because the stuff I found on the subject is that through arabic/hebrew/biblical canon those are just diff names for one entity. Which would make season 4 reaaaaally interesting.

But even if he is "just" one of the fallen angels, he´s still not corporeal and in buffy cannon that means he´s not at full power, again with the manipulation, children recruiting and so on. But I would also say he is, despite the Colt, unkillable. You just can´t kill an angel, fallen or not, and I don´t care what Castiel says!
As for the banishing: what about "the lies my parents told me", didnt she open up a portal even though the powers didn´t want her to?! and I´m afraid mainly ´cause of the comics.

And in the end hell is just another dimension and nobody would really care if she had to drain energy from them if Azazel would be gone, I guess. But it would certainly be one hell of a fight!!

[avamclean.livejournal.com]

Willow can’t be one of the earth’s most powerful Wicca. Wicca is a religion, a way of thinking and when she slit that deer’s throat to bring Buffy back from the dead she would have ‘shat’ all over her religion. To take a life, any life, is wrong within the Wiccan community. Willow’s powers in the comics are absurd. Hence why I refer to them as crap’tastic.

Wow, we definitely have completely non-meshable views of SPN. So I’m not going to bother voicing my opinion on those.

[zoev-believesin.livejournal.com]

My personal opinion... Willow would probably put up one hell of a fight, but would inevitably lose.

I know that the Willow from season 5 was no where near as strong magically as she is in later seasons, but all you have to do is look how she went after Glory when Tara was hurt. She wasn't thinking rationally when she was after revenge, and Azazel being the clever demon he is would take advantage of that. He could kill Xander, Kennedy or whoever Willow loves the most and throw her off her game.

Also, factor in the fact that she's often afraid of her own power, and the many years of experience that Azazel has at killing people (probably including witches ), I just can't see her winning.

She'd really try to beat him, but she doesn't have the will to do whatever it takes to win and she needs that to go against somebody like him.

Plus, on the Azazel side of the argument, he's just too clever, too evil, and damn it, he's just too cool to die by some little witch's hands.

[shard-baenre.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I was the anonymous poster. I had to leave quickly but I wanted to comment.

I have a follow up. I have to agree with the Lilith comment. Both Ruby and Ruby's former mistress mentioned how Lilith was the new power since Azazel's defeat. I don't know about anyone else, but that leads me to believe that she wasn't powerful enough to overthrow Azazel and it would make Azazel a bad ace.

As mentioned nothing could defeat Azazel except one thing. The Brothers Winchester had to have a colt that a demon helped them fix. Sam couldn't defeat him, but he sure as heck was strong enough to prevent Lilith from killing him and we all know how powerful she is.

All that brings us back to the fact that Azazel was one scary dude if even his children by proxy are that strong. As such, I just don't think Willow has the chops. Especially since appeals to her humanity brings her back from the evil mojo she gets into when angered.

Willow has also, always channeled her powered from another source; otherwise, she's pretty small potatoes. Even after her evil bender, she never kept all that power. It faded because she didn't feed on more power and her sense of shame and humanity prevented her. Azazel had no such restrictions and could body hop with ease. So you never really defeat him.